Ukraine’s First Lady, Olena Zelenska, joined hosts Mark Livin and Sofiia Terlez for the first episode of aspecial season of their podcast, Prostymy Slovamy (Простими словами), to talk about how she deals with emotional stress and what helps her to keep going.

The Prostymy Slovamy special season on mental health during war has been produced in collaboration with How Are You?, a Ukrainian mental health awareness initiative launched by the World Health Organization, the Coordination Center for Mental Health under the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine, and No Barriers (Безбар’єрність), an NGO.

Українську текстову версію можна прочитати за посиланням.

Provided below is a transcript of the interview which has been edited for clarity and length. You can access the original on all platforms where you get your podcasts:

Mark Livin: I can’t believe I’m saying this out loud, but today our guest is Ukraine’s First Lady, one of the most influential women in the world according to Time magazine, Olena Zelenska. The first thing I’d like to ask you about is How Are You? – the mental health awareness initiative you started. We are all so familiar with these words: how are you? It’s a question we ask to show that we care about how other people are doing, to help us get a sense of how they’re feeling and what they’re going through. So I wanted to ask you: how are you?

– I have to be honest. Today I’m fine, which is great because last night was relatively calm – especially compared to the night before, when we were following the devastating news from Kryvyi Rih. It was so tense. Now, with the sun shining, and having had a bit more sleep, and the news isn’t as horrible, it feels good, it feels like I have life in me again, I can think about other things. But I think everyone in Ukraine hasn’t been getting enough sleep over the course of the last couple of months, because almost every night we’re woken up by the air-raid warnings. So then you just try to get through the day.

Sofiia Terlez: When you were asked the same question by the BBC, you said: “I’m hanging in there, like everyone else.” I wanted to also ask you, what helps you hang in there? Where do you find support every day?

– Work really helps. That’s nothing new, because when you get up in the morning and realize that you have a lot of things planned and it’s up to you to get those things done, that people are relying on you – that forces you to get out of the bed and to get going.

Hope also helps. You can’t come such a long way and then give up and say you can’t go on any longer, you don’t want to wait for anything anymore.

People in Ukraine [also sustain me]. Even in difficult moments, which we keep facing, they inspire me enormously.

This is something we do everyday now. We watch news reports from places that have been struck, we watch people clear away the rubble. Every time that happens I find myself looking at the State Emergency Service workers’ faces. For some reason they just always capture my attention. I look at their faces, and they’re all so handsome. I’m really inspired by those people.

They’ve decided that saving people will be their profession, they knew that every day of work would be physically and emotionally grueling. And they’re doing it everyday now, they’re rescuing people from underneath the rubble of destroyed buildings, they put out fires. But they have ordinary faces, they’re ordinary people. Every photo of them that I see sustains me. At first it’s almost physically difficult to see, it always takes me by surprise. You feel like it’s physically difficult, but later you realize that you’ve also been inspired.

They’re working so stubbornly, so you can’t just sit and watch them do it. You want to do something, even something very little, whatever is within your powers. You get up and you go and do it. That really helps.

Mark: You said that those stories can on the one hand feel taxing and demand a lot of empathy, but on the other hand they inspire you. I was thinking that you have to process so many of those stories, especially given your current responsibilities and your work. This requires a lot of empathy and compassion, which must affect your emotional and mental state. I wanted to ask how you deal with all those stories you take in and the empathy that that demands of you?

– It really is emotionally taxing. But I think that there is negative stress that kills you, and positive stress that drives you, moves you to action. Let me give you an example. A few days ago I met with kids from the Children-Heroes project. Each of them has their own story. Some of them really just inspire you, like the girl who plays flute in the middle of Dnipro to raise money for the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

But some of their stories are terrible. For example, one boy lost both of his parents in Bakhmut. Some of the stories are about courage, like when a little boy rescued his family from a fire. There are all sorts of stories. But I understand that our meeting must have been so exciting for them that all those kids came to Kyiv, with or without their parents. They had a whole day of activities [in Kyiv], they met lots of people, journalists were filming them, and then the president’s wife came to see them – we had lunch together. It’s all bewildering and disorienting to them, but very important, too, that they’re able to, you know, get this injection of positivity in their lives, something that they don’t have a lot of.

So I [did my best to] give them something like that, even a small measure of it, to make them curious and excited. I really tried to cheer them up, to buoy them up. For a short while, they relaxed and became ordinary children, instead of just always being child heroes. Doing things like that gives me hope that not everything is lost, that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

A very emotional moment for me was giving a speech at the US Congress and talking about the tragedies we’ve lived through, like the story about Liza from Vinnytsia, whom, as it turned out, I knew personally. I realized it was her after she was killed. I was talking about it, and my voice was shaking because I couldn’t hold my feelings back – and I could see people’s response in their eyes. All those great figures in American society – congresspeople, senators, everyone crying with you. Mutual empathy. I think it’s worth telling those stories for experiences like that.

I try to harness all of my feelings and channel them in a productive way: to move someone else to become aware of or realize new things

«I try to harness all of my feelings and channel them in a productive way: to move someone else to become aware of or realize new things»

Sofiia: I wanted to say how grateful I was for this. I remember watching your interview with a French TV channel and seeing a warning that said: be prepared that Ms. Zelenska might cry. I remember exhaling with relief, because I had just been talking to my friends about how often we don’t let ourselves cry because we worry about what people might think. But we need to give ourselves permission to cry – and to have examples of people who deal with those difficult stories, who live through them, and who show their feelings. Permission to cry or to process things however you need to. We’re not used to this. Crying is often seen as something to be ashamed of, and I’m grateful to you [for breaking that stereotype].

– I think this is changing: we are not where we were 20 years ago. We’re growing more open. This is another goal of our mental health awareness program: to help people open up, to themselves and to others – first their closest friends, then perhaps a wider circle of people. It’s hard to deal with everything on your own; we are social animals. We want others to live through and experience the feelings we are experiencing. For example, I always find it very nice when I tell someone about a book or a film and they say something like: “Yes, that’s what I also thought!” That feels great, you feel a real sense of elation. We have to share how we’re feeling to be able to experience those moments. That’s cool.

Mark: I wanted to ask you about your life beyond work. Do you have any time for yourself? I’d be curious to know what you do with that time. You once said in an interview that you have three things that sustain and support you. The first is your work, which we have already talked about – you have a very busy schedule, which helps you focus. The other two things are cleaning and yoga – is that right?

– Let me explain the cleaning bit first. It’s not something I’m always responsible for. Fortunately, I have people who help me with that. But sometimes I just need to sort my stuff out: get my papers organized, throw stuff out, figure out what to do with the huge pile of books by my bed: which books I might still read and which I should return to their shelves. There’s always something that’s been piling up.

I believe that the mess around us manifests as a mess in our heads

«I believe that the mess around us manifests as a mess in our heads»

Provided below is a transcript of the interview which has been edited for clarity and length. You can access the original on all platforms where you get your podcasts:

To clear up the mess in my own head, first I tidy up the literal mess around me. Doing the dishes also calms me. Again – it’s not something I have to do all the time. I have a dishwasher, I don’t have to do it everyday. Maybe if I did – like I did in the past – it wouldn’t be a source of comfort. You know, when it feels like you’d just washed up and there is already a new pile of dishes. But sometimes doing the dishes can be quite meditative, warm water and all.

Another great thing about it is that your hands are wet and you can’t fiddle with your phone. It’s quite rare in our lives today to not be on our phones. It’s a really bad habit. I want to have a few days without my phone. I don’t know how, but right now it’s always in my hands and I’m always looking at it. Even if there’s nothing immediately calling for your attention, you just start looking for things – and all you find is news, things that don’t offer any reprieve.

As for yoga, I used to practice it, but that was a long time ago. I was pregnant with my second child and practiced yoga for a few months – that’s a long time for me. I’ve tried to go back to it several times since. Now though I just try to exercise every day, do some simple exercises. I need an hour after I wake up to things to help me stay fit. This really clears up my head. Whenever I can’t have that – for example when I’m away somewhere or have a busy schedule – I crave it. I need to move, to do something.

Mark: Do you always have an exercise mat with you?

– No, not at all. There are gyms, but I don’t always have time to go. To be honest, when I’m on a trip abroad, every minute and every second of the trip is occupied – you eat whenever you have a chance to sit down for a moment. All you want to do in your free time is sleep.

Sofiia: After your husband was elected [President of Ukraine] but before the inauguration you came to Brussels [together]. I live here [in Brussels], I talk to a lot of people. During the day, [Volodymyr Zelenskyy] had meetings, but he was spending the evenings with you. That really shocked the diplomats here, his ability to separate work and life. It’s rare to see that in politics, because it presupposes a sort of an ascetic, monastic life, where you live in a world that is different and apart from your family. But you [and your husband] were very close. You told the BBC that your husband is your best friend. I wanted to ask you, how do you handle being apart? I understand that you don’t see each other very often. And I have another question. I watched the president’s video address on Instagram today and I saw all the marks of sleepless nights on his face. How does it make you feel, knowing how much your best friend is going through right now, and not being able to always be near?

– I’ll be frank. I can see him in the office, today for example we even had lunch together. [We can see each other], schedules permitting. Sometimes we can rearrange our days so that we can have lunch together, we do that sometimes. Today, for example. Then we’re able to spend some time together, to talk. But it’s a quick lunch: 15-20 minutes and we both have to run. But still, we get to see each other.

Yes, he lives in the office and I live with our kids. Sometimes we all try to get together. It can be difficult, but we try. It doesn’t happen every week, but it does happen. He’s always been busy; we’ve never had a time in our lives when I was able to say: this month we haven’t spent any time apart.

He was always on the move, touring or on set. I take it for granted that the kids and I live this family life, think about schools, our own things – haircuts, buying things. Seeing their dad has always been an occasion, a happy one: when he was home, we’d all be playing, the kids wouldn’t be doing their homework, nothing else would matter at all. I’ve always found it difficult to make the kids stick to their schedule when their dad was home, to make sure they went to bed on time.

So I don’t really struggle with it now. But what makes things difficult is the fact that we are living through a brutal, difficult time. The emotional weight that he carries is an enormous responsibility, and it can’t not manifest physically. I see this and I really want to help him.

Fortunately, he has his own tricks, things that help him. He’s an exercise fanatic, he was the one to introduce me to it. For a long time he’d keep telling me I should start going to the gym. I kept saying no, that I didn’t have time, that I didn’t know where to go and what to do [at the gym], that he didn’t like me as I was. But he persisted, he kept calmly persuading me year after year, and now that I can’t live without it he’s happy. It’s a real need for him, it gives him an outlet for his – I don’t want to say aggression, but when you spend your days fighting for things you believe in, you need to have an outlet for all that adrenalin. He’s recently started boxing, and as far as I know, he absolutely can’t imagine his life without it. I know it helps him. I’m not worried: I know what his diet is like, and I have no issues with it, so everything’s fine.

I’m worried about his sleep, because I know he struggles with it. He always wakes up very early, maybe this has something to do with his cortisol levels: your cortisol can wake you up at four or five in the morning, but unfortunately there’s nothing he can do about it now. As a wife, I keep an eye on it, and I try to cheer him up and make him feel better if I can. Sometimes I manage. Whenever we see each other, we laugh a lot, talk about our kids, our family affairs.

Our family endures, but it’s like a puzzle, more difficult now than before. It’s not like we all have one place where we can gather to see and spend time with each other. We exist in a more complicated system. For example our daughter can reach out to him on her own, via a video call or by phone, or sometimes she can visit him at work. Our son too. Sometimes we come together. It’s just a complicated arrangement. It’s true, we physically miss each other, we miss being able to spend time together, or to talk as much as we want to.

And whenever the kids have access to him, they take him prisoner, they’re competing for his attention, who gets to tell him about their things first, they get upset with one another for interrupting, they each want to talk to their dad. [Laughing] But then it’s over, and everyone’s running around and the boys are fighting – just a regular family spending time together, enjoying themselves. And we have to fight for this time together.

Mark: I have two short questions. The first one is about social media. You mentioned those times when you feel the warm water on your hands and you physically can’t hold your phone. I wanted to ask you what your relationship with social media is. I remember you once said you stopped following social media. When did that happen?

– Let’s put it this way: we are divorced, social media and I. [Laughing] It was my decision.

Sofiia: Was it an abusive relationship?

– Sometimes, yes. There’s a lot of abusers out there. There’s cyberbullying. I’ve seen and experienced all of that. When we launched [my husband’s] election campaign I suddenly saw I’m a real monster. [Laughing] You live your life thinking you’re a regular person, you have friends, you’ve never hurt anyone, you’re doing great, you’re not a criminal, you have moral principles and you live by them. And suddenly you realize that many people have a different opinion of you. And they’re eager to express it, sometimes using words you’ve never heard before. I thought I should read less of that, to avoid looking at comments. But it’s almost involuntary, you can’t do anything about it. It didn’t matter how much I’d try to convince myself to avoid doing it, I’d still do it. Afterwards, my heart would beat hard and it would be difficult to calm down. But all of that’s behind me.

In the days after the full-scale invasion I had to switch off all of my communication devices for security reasons. My phone and my laptop were off, and I had to leave them at home. I no longer have access to that phone number. And all of my accounts – the beloved Netflix, Apple TV, everything I paid for for years ahead, all the books I bought online, all of the podcasts – everything had to be left behind, I no longer have access to any of it. But I also have to be present on social media, and now there’s more of them too. We added Telegram, and I had to start using gadgets again. Though I’ve been limiting myself to writing posts but not reading anything. When I need to find out about something in particular, I ask [the people I work with] to send me screenshots of the stuff I need, or forward me just the relevant materials.

Now I talk more than I listen [on social media]. It’s easier, because for example when I realize that something big has happened and everyone’s talking about it, I go to the source and read about the event, but I don’t read about what everyone’s thinking about it. I’m not affected by other people’s opinions, which can sway me one way or another. I can formulate my own opinion before finding out what other people think. I think this is a purer approach. Especially when you verify the sources the information has come from to make sure you can trust it. This is a sort of information hygiene that I now practice.

Mark: My other question is about your kids. You talked about spending time with your family. You’ve started an initiative to make Ukrainian books more popular abroad. If I’m not wrong, Ukrainian children and libraries abroad have received 280,000 books. When you were talking about how you came up with the project, you said that not all parents were able to bring their kids’ favorite books with them when they were fleeing their homes. If you had to bring one book, what book would you pick for your kids and what would you choose for yourself?

– Lord of the Rings for the kids. It’s a great book. Even when your kid doesn’t want to read or listen to you reading it, you can read it yourself – you can start anywhere in the book and put it down at any point. It’s quite long too. Now you don’t really know how long you’ll be gone for, sadly. You can read it for a long time. It’s heavy, but I’d definitely take it with me.

This is probably not very original but from Ukrainian children’s books I’d choose [Vsevolod] Nestaiko [a modern Ukrainian children’s writer - ed.]. I think he’s the best choice if you want to district your kid and immerse them in this wonderful world of fantasy and adventure. Toreadors from Vasiukivka or In the Land of Sunshine, one of those books. I loved them when I was a kid. They were funny and fascinating. I really want my son to start reading them now. I read them to him when he was younger, but now it’s time for him to read them on his own.

We’re on this difficult path. Today’s kids are different from how we were when we were kids. Where we only had books, they have all these options for entertaining themselves. When we were off on holidays, and we had to stay home, and all we had was the Village Hour show on TV or something like that, we’d reach for books. They offered comfort and saved us [from boredom]. And we still [have this relationship with books]. We have to somehow teach today’s kids to do it, too. I think that’s what I’d pick as a kids’ book.

As for myself…I think I’d just grab whatever I was reading then in order to finish the book. I’m reading Anna Lembke’s Dopamine Nation. I really like it. I’m interested in the topic. Some of the things [Lembke describes] happening to us now really scare me, but I have to finish it, it’s very interesting. Also it’s a bit embarrassing but I’ve only recently discovered Ayn Rand. You know, her books are on all must-read lists, and Atlas Shrugged is deemed to be the book “every thinking person should read” – this usually discourages me. I don’t like being pushed to do something, so I always thought I’d read her later. But recently I had to read Fountainhead, and I was surprised how amazing it was. I just really got it. It’s incredible. So maybe I would take Atlas Shrugged with me – I’m glad I have that whole book still ahead of me. But I’d have a heavy suitcase!

As for Ukrainian books, I really liked Felix Austria, a novel by Sofiia Andrukhovych. She creates this wonderful emotional world. I read it two or three years ago, not sure. You have to find a quiet place with soft light where you can be alone and just spend time with the book, in the atmosphere that [Andrukhovych] has created. It’s so beautiful.

Provided below is a transcript of the interview which has been edited for clarity and length. You can access the original on all platforms where you get your podcasts:

Sofiia: It’s true, it’s a Halycian fairytale set in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. You really feel like it describes the way things really happened.

– It’s fantastic.

Mark: Sofiia is from Ivano-Frankivsk and the way she describes it makes you feel like you’re right there, witnessing everything. It’s immersive. By the way, we also often talk about Dopamine Nation and The Toreadors from Vasiukivka.

– I didn’t prepare for this. [Laughing]

Sofiia: [...] You mentioned in other interviews that your parents wanted you to be an architect. You also said that you were an obedient child. You agreed with their choice, but you still have nightmares about failing an exam. Now is the time we are all being tested, too. What are your dreams like now? Do you dream about things from your past, or about things that are happening now?

– We talked about how sleep is a luxury now. Sometimes you just fall into it. I often dream about waking up – but I’m still asleep. You know when you’re afraid of oversleeping to the extent that you can’t sleep at all. “You have to get up. No, not yet.” Strange dreams.

I recently had a dream where I was on a giant balloon. The dream ended well, I think it was a good omen. But the dream itself…The balloon was tied to the ground, it couldn’t fly, even though it wanted to. I was holding on to the rope it was tied with high above the ground, swaying every which way. I don’t know what force possessed me, wind or what, but it was very strong and I was very high above the ground. But for some reason I wasn’t afraid. I knew that if I kept holding on, I wouldn’t fall. And then it was over, I came down to the ground, and everything was fine. I didn’t fall to my death or fly off somewhere into the universe. Everything was fine. But I haven’t had a dream like that in a long time, maybe since I was a kid. A strange adventure.

Or I dream about being carried somewhere by a powerful stream of water, but again, I don’t feel afraid, and I’m also not enjoying the speed, but I think: “Woah, it’s so fast, incredible!” And it also ends well. I’m being carried somewhere, but I survive. Maybe it’s a good omen.

Sofiia: Maybe. You know, I thought that when I read that story about your parents that it must have been some sort of fate that brought you to study architecture. And I also thought that it happened to you again when your husband was elected president and you once again ended up somewhere you perhaps never expected to be. Did you have a right to be angry? Were you angry with him?

– Of course I experienced all sorts of feelings. I should’ve been warned, you know. [Laughing] He was very busy. I know he worried about how it would affect me. We should’ve sat down and spent an entire night talking about it. Maybe even several nights. He knew that I’d get actively involved in different ways, so he kept putting that conversation off – until the day when he announced it. Then it was too late, but what could we do?

You know, it wasn’t the first challenge I’d ever faced. You mentioned my education. If you’ve experienced something like that once, it’s easier to go through it again. I also think that when we’re outside of our comfort zone, we just have to expand our comfort zone to encompass the new reality that we’re in. And as it expands, you feel more in control. For me [my husband’s election] was not just a step but a quick jolt outside of my comfort zone.

There’s no point in thinking and wondering how it happened to me, why me, why. To be honest, I had a few months to find my bearings and figure out where I was, what was happening, what I was capable of doing, what opportunities I had, and what obligations. I had to find where my work would be the most effective. It didn’t happen instantaneously, and the process was not easy, but I think I got there in the end. I think it’s a good example of changing the boundaries of my comfort zone. Now I’m doing just fine.

Mark: You founded the How Are You? initiative. I wanted to mention a personal experience. We know that talking about our issues is often stigmatized. This kind of masculine culture [of silence] still prevails: you have to grit your teeth and deal with it. On the one hand, there is this stigma and mistrust towards therapists. On the other hand, there have been some public controversies in which therapists had managed to discredit entire institutions and professions. In your opinion, how can we restore trust in therapy and show people that it’s very important to talk to therapists, first and foremost for their own health?

– It’s a difficult task, but the Ukrainian Mental Health Program has taken it on. One of the priorities of this program is to offer professional certification for various services. To create unified standards, so that people can be sure that they will be given help by a qualified professional. Our coordination council has to become an umbrella organization that will bring together countless private specialists, NGOs, and other organizations working on this.

I’m glad that [the Ukrainian Mental Health Program] has been created and that it brings together not just representatives from every ministry, but also civil society, international experts, and funders. The goal is not to control or regulate, but to establish a solid foundation, so that people know where to go or who to call and can imagine the outcomes. So that they’re not afraid [to ask for help].

Many people in Ukraine, especially older people, are still harboring this post-Soviet fear and mistrust towards anything associated with the prefix “psycho-”, after their experience of years of punitive Soviet medicine, when everyone who dared to think differently could be locked up for years [in psychiatric hospitals and institutions]. There’s this fear. We have to show people that things are different now. There’s a long way before you get prescribed pills, and there’s no guarantee that you will be getting pills. We have to explain to people how that works.

First and foremost, people have to understand what mental health is and how to take care of it; to realize that it’s not scary. The goal of the initiative you’re also involved with – How Are You? – is to introduce people to this topic anew. I like the words and tone the program uses when it appeals to people: it’s kind and friendly and not patronizing. It doesn’t say “We will teach you everything, you have to listen to us.” It’s very real. I really hope that it will force people to pay attention, to probe how they’re doing, to find ways to figure out how they’re really doing, to work out what to do after they’ve established how they feel. Our goal is to make this as easy and straightforward as possible, and we have ways to achieve it. Unfortunately time goes by very quickly but I hope we’ll see good results. A lot of people are involved and there’s hope that we’ll manage.

Sofiia: [...] In terms of what Mark said, I think that masculinity, the cultural idea that a man has to deal with his issues on his own, leads to a sense of helplessness and violence becomes the only outlet for it. I was really grateful to Masi Naiiem who told us he was seeing a therapist, he met a therapist at a hospital and has been seeing her. It’s like a man giving other men permission, showing them that it’s okay, that [therapy] won’t make you a worse person, that people won’t think you’re crazy.

Mark: Instead, you’ll become a better person.

Sofiia: Yes, that’s right, you’ll become a better person. But [in Ukraine] it’s rare for people who have faced challenges to openly and freely discuss them – not just quietly whisper about them to their friends, but say openly: “Yes, it was difficult, but I did it.” That would be great.

Mark: Yes, we need role models.

– We need role models for the military. We often talk about the challenges related to the post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) that we will face. I think this is a great role model for men in the military: you’ve already proven your bravery, you served on the front, and now you’re brave enough to show that you need help. You just have to be as brave as you’ve already shown yourself capable of being. Then everyone else will follow you. This is another manifestation of the heroism everyone already knows you possess. There’s no need to prove anything to anyone. It’s just another courageous step to take.

Mark: What I really liked in terms of the program’s practical implementation is the fact that family doctors will be able to send people to therapy. As far as I understand, they’ll get trained to recognize what people are going through [mentally and emotionally]. They’ll be able to provide first aid. I think this can change the way people think about mental health, because your family doctor is the first doctor you usually turn to. When they can say “I see what’s going on with you”, it’s got to help.

Sofiia: And [when they can say] that it’s okay, it’s fine, and you haven’t lost your mind.

– That’s true. The majority of people turn to their family doctors first instead of going straight to a specialist. Even if people realize that they have mental health issues, only a minority would go to a specialist. The way it should work is they should see someone who would recognize this and then direct them somewhere where they can get help.

Another practical thing we can do is train first responders, who would be first to meet people who lived through traumatic events – State Emergency Service workers, police officers. We held a big training event for Ukrzaliznytsia (Ukrainian Railways) staff, train conductors, people who worked on evacuation trains over these years – they’ve seen it all. They lived through all of that with those people. It’s very important to teach them how to respond to crisis situations and difficult behaviors, and to teach them social help principles, things that could help calm someone.

I think that once the majority of first responders know those things, we’ll be able to help people in the first moments after they’ve endured something very difficult. It will make it easier to work with them going forward.

Sofiia: It really is important. I also thought about how important it is to take care of train conductors, medical workers, and family doctors. Because they’re the ones who have to breathe calmly, have a calm voice. We also have to take care of the teachers who are in turn taking care of our children. Because if their lessons are cool and fun but the teachers themselves are stressed out, we have to take care of those teachers.

– Fortunately all of that’s built into the program. It’s true, it’s very important how those people you mentioned are feeling. They should also be receiving help. Many police officers have undergone this training. The psychologists who work with them have also been retrained to help them more effectively now.

Sofiia: The shortest question from our list of questions: do you still have two dogs, a cat, a parrot, and a hamster? How are they doing?

– Unfortunately not all of them are with us. We had two dogs, but one of them – Nora, a 14-year-old Swiss shepherd – died two months ago. It was very sad for us, because we went through several weeks of difficult treatments with her, but she had already developed diseases that couldn’t be treated, so we had to make the difficult decision of letting her go. Of course it was very hard for the kids. My son still talks about her a lot. All the other pets are fine, still alive. I think they’re healthy. We take care of them all.

Sofiia: Your story touches on something important. I think that now, we all have to talk to our kids often about things they don’t understand well. How do you do that? How do you talk to your kids about what’s happening in the country and what’s happening to their relatives and loved ones?

– I think I’m lucky that my kids aren’t that young. I talk to my daughter like an adult. I don’t have to find some special approach. I have to work through some things with my son; [our kids] now live in the same information space as we do. They understand things better than we do. I think it’s more interesting what they have to say about what’s happening.

My son is 10, and he is someone who won’t ever try to dodge mandatory military service. I think he’s determined to have a career in the military. But the military are also their heroes. They’re so proud of them. They’re their role models. He often asks me when all of this will be over. We’re all staying strong, all waiting and hoping. We’re all waiting for the news that we’ve reached a turning point and things will be easier. He’s also waiting. He’s always asking me about things he’ll be able to do when the war is over. They’re waiting to be able to do certain things, but I can’t tell them when that might be. It’s difficult for me as a mother. But he’s so full of hope and belief that it will be an absolutely unrivaled victory, so powerful that the whole world will be awed. On the one hand, this makes me happy, but on the other – don’t we know how it might really end? We all hope that it will be beautiful and we’ll get to celebrate, but how will it really be? We’re all waiting [to see].

I’m very honest with him, but I’m not deliberately exposing him to particularly horrible footage or images. I once even lied to him, when I found out about Liza from Vinnytsia. It happened in the evening, I was putting him to sleep, and I was reading the news on my phone and I realized that she was killed, this girl that I met the year before, and I felt tears in my eyes. I was looking at my phone and he asked me: “What happened, mom?” I didn’t tell him. I told him I just read a sad news story. I couldn’t tell him about this girl, about what happened to her, I didn’t want to. I knew he wouldn’t sleep well. He gets really worried, he can spend weeks thinking about it, before talking about it.

I really like that he can talk about his feelings, he didn’t get it from me. My daughter doesn’t do it either, but he does. He can tell me about his feelings. For example when we have some sort of misunderstanding or if I yell at him, he can tell me: “Mom, I don’t like it when you talk to me like that. I feel like I’m shaking inside and I can’t focus. I feel bad, please don’t do that.” Alright, okay. I back off. He’s able to tell me what he wants, what he’s feeling. He won’t shut himself in his room and cry, he tells me everything straightaway. I’m really glad about that.

I hope that this will help us get through whatever difficulties. That he will be able to talk to me. Anyway, I often ask him what he’s thinking about, and often it’s related to the war. Sadly our children are thinking only about the war.

Sofiia: It’s really great that you can just ask them. It’s a good option for the parents who don’t know what to say. Before saying anything, just ask: What are you thinking about? What worries you? Just listen to your child, spend time with them.

– It’s much easier, because you can direct that conversation the way you want to. Otherwise you have no idea how they’ll respond to you giving them this horrible information about what might happen. It’s better to do that gradually. I agree with you.

Mark: Maybe our listeners will borrow this method from your son, talking through their feelings. We’ve been pushing this and teaching people about this for the past five years. [Laughing] But maybe your son’s experience will sway more of our listeners.

I’d like to ask you – it’s usually Sofiia who asks this question, but I’ll be the one to ask it today. What’s the first thing you will do after Ukraine wins?

– I talked about this once, but I really do want to do it. I just really want to do it. It will mean that it’s all over, that I can exhale. I love driving, but for the longest time I haven’t been able to. I especially love being in the car on my own, without anyone in the passenger seat.

Mark: Turn on the music?

– Turn on the music I want to listen to. Anything at all. And go somewhere I don’t need to keep track of time. I don’t know. I’m imagining a beautiful area near Kyiv, maybe on the banks of the Dnipro – stop somewhere and spend as much time as I want there. Definitely on my own, without anyone else. That’d be a real indication that it’s all over. That I don’t need to think about security anymore, or about anything else at all.

Sofiia: Or follow the news. You can just do what you want however you want for as long as you want.

– Yes. That’s the dream.

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