The Free Azov protests started as a way to raise awareness about the plight of Azov Assault Brigade fighters who were taken into Russian captivity during the defense of Mariupol –  particularly during the siege of the Azovstal Iron and Steel Works – and to force the government to do more to ensure their release. Over the last few months, however, the use of smoke grenades during protests, references to the protests as “present-day raves,” and casual use of the Azov Brigade’s symbols have turned the protests into entertainment.

The Village Ukraine journalist Serzh Khutsanu talks to Anna Naumenko, one of the founders of the Association of Azovstal Defenders’ Families, about inter-organizational conflict, the association’s relations with the Ukrainian government, and the rules guiding the protests. Anna tells us what fighters from the Azov Brigade think about the protests and who should be responsible for answering the question “Where is Azov?”

Anna Naumenko

   

– What are your organization’s main activity streams at the moment?

– We are working in advocacy and creating information campaigns. We support the families [of Azovstal defenders] and oversee the Finally Home human rights project, which is directly concerned with prisoner swaps. [As part of the project], we put together individual humanitarian aid packages for defenders who are brought back to Ukraine.

We want these packages to show that Ukrainian people feel care and concern towards the fighters and to help reduce their stress levels. The project offers psychological support in addition to material aid.

– What’s inside those packages?

– We put them together depending on the person’s gender and take into account any health issues they might have; we try to approach each one individually. I heard the guys describe these packages as “boxes full of cool stuff”; they contain quality basics and sometimes – whenever we get them – items provided by our partners and sponsors.

We pay particular attention to the information aspect of it and include materials on psychological rehabilitation and legal issues, as well as brief summaries of events that took place while the person was in captivity. This is important given that in captivity they experience a harrowing atmosphere and are constantly told that no one is waiting for them at home. This time [when the fighters are released from captivity] is a sensitive and vulnerable time; they need it, and so do we as a society.

– Does everyone who is brought back from captivity get these packages or just those who defended Azovstal?

– The latter. We’re doing this for the Mariupol garrison – those who defended Azovstal – because as their relatives we have also been brought together by this particular situation. We coordinate our actions with the representatives of the [Azov Brigade], which gives us access to the exchange lists, as well as with hospitals and other medical establishments; we run all of our activities past them. We’re continuing to work on this, but in the absence of prisoner swaps there’s no point trying to negotiate deals with suppliers or fundraise to buy backpacks or stuff like that.

We do other things too, for example we offer psychological support to those who are waiting for their loved ones to be released from captivity. Sometimes we organize lectures or conferences. However, I feel that it’s more and more difficult to do those things because people are less open. Two years on, everyone is turning inward and closing off. It’s more and more difficult to fill support groups.

There’s this one girl, Olia, her husband was killed during the [Russian] terrorist attack on the Olenivka prisoner camp [where Ukrainian prisoners of war were held]. She finds more meaning in taking care of her family than in attending support groups for herself. It’s a very personal matter. Everyone has a different experience.

– You mentioned advocacy, could you talk more about it?

– We go on various trips and take part in meetings where we represent the prisoners and advocate for their interests in different circles. Our first such trip was to the Vatican, where we had an audience with the Pope, in May 2022. We have since visited different countries and attended various events where in addition to our main work we organize meetings with the Ukrainian diaspora and visit embassies. Just recently, I was in Warsaw, where I ran workshops with human rights organizations; in February, I represented our organization and advocated on issues that are important to us during the Ukrainian Week in Berlin.

Several other women [from the Association of Azovstal Defenders’ Families] and representatives of the Azov Brigade are in the UK now, they spoke to the British Parliament. We also work alongside the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry. We organize all our meetings and trips as an organization, the government doesn’t help us; sometimes the media suggest that it does, but that’s not the case. To be honest, though, there are always good people who help us with something or other.

Part of our advocacy work and information campaigns is fighting propaganda about the Azov Brigade in the West.

– What are your association’s relations with the government like?

– I think most NGOs have a fraught relationship with power; we’re not an exception. We have our own reasons for that. Things will only be good when the government starts responding to society’s demands. But when you delve deeper into what’s going on, you realize that that’s impossible. You can’t please everyone. Someone will always be unhappy. Personally I think that we could’ve had a better relationship [with the government] but…

There are no good working coalitions between NGOs and the government. But sometimes that’s the case even when it comes to military units. Despite the fact that we’re all fighting in the same great war and we all have one great aim, there will always be people who want to go their own way. Though they might join forces with others on some issues. In the beginning, we really tried to bring everyone together. Now there are only families of Azovstal defenders in our working group; the Olenivka Families Community decided to split from us, even though we could’ve done more together. I find this upsetting.

– During a conversation with a representative of the Olenivka Families Community last year I noticed that they don’t really want to have anything in common with your organization. Why is that?

– I would also like to know! We see the terrorist attack on Olenivka as one of the most prominent examples of Russian war crimes against Ukrainian prisoners of war. It was a prime example of the terrorist state failing to fulfill its duties and responsibilities.

But it’s important for us to highlight other incidents too, because on the one hand – yes, [Olenivka] was a great tragedy, but on the other it’s far from the only one. The war continues, and our primary goal is to win the war, so that those who are currently in captivity have somewhere to return to.

Our Olia, one of the four women who came to the Vatican with us, is the backbone of the association, who it all started with; she lost her husband in Olenivka. She advocated on this issue a lot. But then she was pushed out from the [Olenivka Families] Community, because, they said, she was pushing an agenda. That’s how it all started. Talking about it now makes me realize how absurd all of this sounds.

– Let’s talk about today’s pressing issues, the #FreeAzov protests. How did they start?

– The first rally took place before rallies were even made legal again, on 19 April 2022. Ten of us gathered on the Sofiiska Square.

Then we were allowed to organize rallies on anniversaries and during events. Not that they could really ban us from protesting, but from time to time they’d advise us not to organize very loud performances, to avoid involuntarily helping the enemy. At first we would really listen, because, first, we understand that if military leaders were able to organize the evacuation [of Ukrainian military personnel] from Azovstal, they were able to reach an agreement on that, they know a lot more than us, and they’re talking to the other side. So if they’re advising something, we better listen.

After the [Azov Brigade] commanders were brought back, there were no developments on further swaps involving Azov members. The longer the government was silent on this, the more our protests grew. Protests bring people together, unite them. These protests bring together families and friends [of Azovstal defenders] and make them feel like they’re doing something rather than waiting in silence. It’s important for people to feel they’re doing everything they can. It’s very important.

Well, and public demand for prisoner swaps usually arises spontaneously during events like these. Although it’s true that that’s become harder now.

Personally, I always stress that these protests draw attention to the entire Mariupol garrison, not just the Azov Brigade, but Azov has the most active supporters.

– Do you coordinate the protests with the city government?

– Of course we have to coordinate all of our rallies with the Kyiv City State Administration and the police.

Since the organizers of the protests are the relatives of Ukrainian prisoners of war…

– …they are the people who will be held responsible for everything that takes place during those protests.

– Exactly. The latest development in the protests, which took shape last autumn, saw them turn into god knows what. I don’t like them anymore. I was afraid that something like this might happen – and it did. The protests became a pop culture phenomenon, a weekly festival of sorts, with people forgetting what the goal of these protests is.

When media personalities first started attending the protests, I thought they were showing they were not indifferent. Now I see that some people come just to show they were there. To publicly show that they’re taking a civic stance. Then they forget all about the protests – until the next time they want to increase their personal visibility.

– I’ve heard the protests called a “festival”, a “hang-out”, and also, on Instagram, “present-day raves”.

– “Present-day raves” really is an accurate description of what’s going on. I’ll try to remember that. Although of course we never wanted these protests to turn into that. It feels like history has taken a wrong turn. We have always known that these protests were important for the families [of prisoners of war] and the worst thing that can happen are provocations and other actions by the crowd we wouldn’t be able to control. No one wants these protests to turn into another Maidan [the Revolution of Dignity protests of 2013-14]. That’s why we don’t hold rallies near the Office of the President, for example.

I’m from Kharkiv and I attended the Revolution of Dignity protests in Kharkiv in 2014, I saw instigators start acting violently from inside the crowds of protesters. That’s what I’m really afraid of now, when more and more provocations occur during each protest: the use of smoke grenades, or large groups of strange people arriving in pickup trucks. We don’t know what to expect from them. Let me reiterate that if they start a commotion, it’s the organizers who will bear the responsibility. But it will also play right into the enemy’s hands.

– After one of the protests, I was sent an Instagram post which contained a photo in which you can see the insignia of the Vedmedi (Bears) sabotage and reconnaissance group [which is part of the Azov Battalion], which contains an element that resembles the SS symbol. [The Vedmedi group says the SS on their insignia stands for “Secret Service”] As far as I understand, the Azov Brigade is trying to distance itself from its far-right history and to create a new image, which would undermine enemy propaganda claims about “Nazi Azov fighters” and so on. What about this photo though?

– Fucking hell, we have asked people so many times not to use these symbols… They’re controversial, they’re banned on Instagram, and they’re just… an echo of the past. The guys [from the Azov Brigade] are putting their lives on the line to prove that the Azov Brigade’s politics is at odds with the false far-right image it has in the West. The Azov from 2014 and the Azov from 2024 are two different formations.

But it’s true, someone always shows up with a controversial flag or slogan, without giving any thought to the effects of their actions. That’s really bad, and it confirms that the protests are spinning out of control.

And all those people crammed inside the beds of the pick-up trucks – what’s the likelihood that one of those people tumbles over and hurts themselves? I don’t know. But will it make anything better? No. Nothing. The organizers will only suffer. How does it influence the situation around prisoner swaps? It doesn’t.

When I got the interview request from The Village, the topic I really wanted to avoid was the protests, because I can imagine how the public will respond. But I also know that it’s now impossible not to talk about this publicly. I don’t want to tell people who come to support the families of prisoners of war and draw attention to those prisoners’ plight how to behave. Because you know how it is, people will start saying that if someone wants to teach them how to support others, they won’t show up at our protests at all. That’s the easiest thing to do, but it’s also childish. I’m talking about something else: what matters is showing respect for other people during these protests and always keeping in mind why those protests are happening at all. Do the calls to “Honk if you support us!” help? I don’t have PTSD or anything like that, but these loud sounds are really triggering, especially considering we’ve been hearing relentless air-raid warnings for the past two years.

– This is a great opportunity for you to come up with a list of things protest participants should and shouldn’t do. Like a list of rules.

– Just don’t be a dick. [Laughing] But yes, we should’ve done that a long time ago. We’ll come up with a list and send it to you.

Rules for Free Azovstal Defenders protest participants

– I’d also like to touch on the use of the brigade’s symbols. Do you know what the people in the brigade think about it?

– One of the Azov Brigade fighters I know recently attended one of the protests to see what they’re like, because the use of the brigade’s symbols is often brought up during the brigade’s meetings. “We’re fucking punished for it” is what he said.

Appropriate use is at stake here. Yes, it’s okay to draw the brigade’s symbol on a poster that says “Where is Azov?” but it’s not okay to attach that same symbol to your shoelaces – we’ve seen people do that. It’s not okay to draw flags and the brigade’s symbols on your bare chest.

People died for these symbols, just as they have been dying for other military insignia. These symbols are used on posters, during official events and funerals… Do you think it’s okay to ride around in a pickup truck half-naked, displaying the same insignia?

– I wanted to ask you about your slogans, “Where is Azov?” in particular. Prisoner swaps in Ukraine are currently overseen by the Coordination Staff which involves the International Committee of the Red Cross; sometimes a third country also gets involved (which was the case with the Azov commanders prisoner swap). Unfortunately it’s also impossible to organize without Russia’s agreement. We’re talking about thousands of people, dozens of organizations, and a terrorist state that holds prisoners. Only [Russia] can really know where those people are. But who else can answer your question “Where is Azov?”

– “Where is Azov?” is a form of communication that entails manipulation. It’s not a direct question to the government. It’s not a question to those who are involved in organizing prisoner swaps. We’re promised so much. For example, during a prisoner exchange that might see 80 soldiers brought back, only four of them would have fought at Azovstal, and there would be no members of the Azov Brigade. Meanwhile, media headlines claim that “Azovstal defenders have been brought back”. It’s a good strategy, but it’s manipulative. So we have to respond to manipulation in kind. Hence “Where is Azov?”

It’s a question. “Where is Azov?” has a more powerful effect on people than the statement “Free Azov.”

– “Don’t be silent, captivity kills” is another statement. Will you be organizing protests abroad or in other Ukrainian cities to break out of the Kyiv bubble and draw more attention to your cause?

– Yes, of course, there are [protests in] other Ukrainian cities. It’s more difficult to organize protests abroad, because people there… are less enthusiastic, let’s put it that way. Still, there are occasional rallies abroad; it’s not just harder to mobilize people there [to take part], but also to organize [the protests], but we’re in touch with local organizers, and that’s something we’re also working on. Though of course we really do need to be more on it outside of Kyiv, and that’s something we’ll pursue more actively.

Protest in support of Ukrainian prisoners of war organized by the Svitanok.nyc NGO in New York

Free Azov: A protest in support of Ukrainian prisoners of war took place in Lviv on June 9, 2024

– If it’s so difficult to mobilize Ukrainians abroad, wouldn’t it be easier to invite foreign journalists to come to Ukraine?

– At first we did invite foreign press. But now, when we can’t know how the people in the crowd will act, a picture taken by a foreign journalist might make things worse. Imagine if the photo with the Vedmedi (Bears) sabotage and reconnaissance group’s insignia [which contains a symbol identical to the Nazi “SS”] appeared in The Washington Post and not in The Village, for instance…

– To sum up…

– If it’s still not clear, the main thread of our conversation so far has been people’s lives. The lives of those who have survived those 86 days in Mariupol. Those who have been in captivity for two years now. And about our lives here, yours and mine, now and in the future.

Why should civilians who are in no way related to these prisoners of war be interested in this? Because this is the matter of what our society will look like in the future. Sooner or later, those people will return to Ukraine. What the society they’ll return to will look like is up to each of us. We are part of this society, and we have to be worthy of their fight for us.