ENGWhat should every boy know about sex, love and consent? Sex educator Inti Chavez Perez explains

Inti Chavez Perez is a Swedish writer and sex educator. He is the author of “Respect: Everything A Guy Needs to Know About Sex, Love, and Consent”, a book about sex education for men. Chavez Perez has been appointed by the Swedish Government as an expert on matters regarding sexual violence perpetrated by men, LGBTQI issues, honor violence, and more. He also serves on the advisory board for the Swedish Agency for Youth and Civil Society.

The Village Ukraine journalist Serj Khutsanu talked to Chavez Perez about how and when adults need to start talking about sex and puberty with boys and who should be held accountable for sexual harassment and rape at drunken teenage parties.

 

– How did we end up in a situation where we are only starting to teach men that they have to respect their partners and that sex should be consensual now, in the 21st century? What have we been doing until now? Do we stand a chance of changing this situation in the future?

– Well, I would say that I consider myself to be just one activist in a big movement that has been working for a really long time promoting ideas about sexual consent and physical integrity. I'd say that these ideas, they really became stronger in the 19th century and have just been getting stronger and stronger and we're building our work upon the work that others have done previously. I find great inspiration when thinking about those who worked for gender equality before me. Because they sometimes took great risks when they spoke about really basic things like human rights and women’s right to vote and so on.

The sexist culture that I am fighting and that I invite other guys to fight with me is a culture that is thousands of years old and it comes from… agricultural cultures. That was a time when women didn't even have the right to own anything, so all the land and stock, the animals, animal stock was owned by men, and was going to be owned by the sons of the men. And so we created societies that were deeply unequal, where marriage and sexuality weren't something you could choose. Women didn’t have, daughters didn’t have the right to choose who they were married to – and this was written into law. So these are really old institutions and patterns of power. I would say that we have come a long way to fight those patterns. But we still have lots to do.

– You teach guys about respect, but who teached you?

– That's a really good question! I think I learned about nurture from my grandmother, who is still alive. She is a strong woman who became a widow with four daughters back in the time when it was seen as strange for a woman to walk all by herself on the streets in Spain. So she really took care of me, she really nurtured me with love and amazing food and gave me a sense of belonging. And I think that was something I really needed as a boy and as a young man. Because I experienced the world as a very cold place.

And maybe, in a way, since I have these contrasts – I experienced love and I also experienced hard peer pressure and so on – I want other boys and guys to experience the same things. The positive things in life. I want guys to know that they can give all those things, that you can give warmth and support to others. You can be that person. I'm getting really philosophical, but that's because of your questions.

– Right. Let’s get to the point. I have a son, he's 9 years old and he doesn't seem to be interested in all of this sexual stuff yet. I understand and sometimes I see that he's been showing first signs of puberty. How do I start a conversation with him about all this?

– Well, first of all, I want to tell people to start as early as possible. Because then it doesn't come as a big shock. But I do think that yeah, with a 9 year old, there is definitely time to talk about puberty. And it’s important for your son and for other children to learn about puberty before things happen so that the events of puberty don't feel as traumatic. Because it is a bit traumatic to have your body change and your mind change in those ways. Anybody would feel that way. And if you don't have knowledge about it, you can become scared. 

So I do think that you should talk [to your son] about puberty. For example, you could start by bringing home information about puberty. You could either read it together or you could ask your son to read it and then you can review it together. You can also ask your child or son, has he been told about puberty at the school? Have his friends talked about puberty? Has he noticed some of his friends going into puberty? What does he think puberty would be like? Is there anything that maybe he thinks would be positive about puberty? And is there something he thinks would be hard about puberty? If so, does he think he could talk to you about it – if puberty happens and if it's hard for him? So just keep the conversation going. I don't think it's just one big talk. I think that would be an error to just do one big talk. Because your son would maybe not feel comfortable with that and maybe wouldn't take the opportunity to talk with you if it's just one big talk. Better take it in small portions.

– Should it be a father-son, or maybe mother-son, conversation – or is it better for both parents to do it together? What is the best way?

– I think that children need their adults. And somebody has a father, somebody has a mother, somebody doesn't even have parents but has a big sister or whatever. And those adults that we have around us, that children have around them, those are really, really precious. So maybe somebody reads this interview and has a child that doesn't have a father. And I want to reassure them that it doesn't matter who you are. It's you taking that role of being the person that is there for them. Starting this conversation and opening up for questions. 

And it seems to me as we are talking right now that this is something that concerns you, that you think about this. I really think that you adults should take initiative here if [your kids] are already thinking about this stuff.

 

 

– In your experience, what is the main problem of sex education for boys?

– I'd say the lack of sex education. Because, think about it – there's nothing easier or more fun than having sex education with boys. I mean, whenever I go into a classroom and want to start speaking with students, they are interested. There's also laughing, there's always positive emotions. And there's expectations.

Maybe there's nervousness in the room. Kids want sex education because it's about them. In many schools, what sex education a kid gets depends on the teacher. So if the teacher is a wise person who really cares about this stuff, has read books about it, and has talked with others about it, then the kids will get a great sex education. But if the teacher is not interested in these topics or thinks it's embarrassing, then the kids won't get anything. And that is a problem. It’s a policy problem that we don't see sex education as part of regular education.  

There are no teachers who say that “Oh no, molecules. I can't teach about molecules because I feel embarrassed. I can't talk about rain. Why does it rain? What are clouds made of? Oh, I'm feeling embarrassed.” No, that’s part of the curriculum. Everybody gets the same knowledge. And I think that's really the appropriate way to do it. 

I’d like to say another thing that comes from me working a lot with teachers. Teachers shouldn’t talk only about facts. Teachers should also invite kids into a conversation about life. It could be something as easy as watching a short clip on YouTube about somebody breaking up or something. And then discussing: Why did they break up? How did it feel for this person? How did it feel for the other person? What would you have done in this situation? So the kids get to own the conversation, be part of it. And when you do that, that's when you are sure that the conversation is really benefiting the students.

 

If you're a teenager, you should know that we, as a society, come from a long history of oppressing women, taking away women's rights, forcing women to marry against their will, and forcing women to have sex in these forced marriages. That’s the history. It's the history of replacing love with rape. That’s where we come from. Do you want to change that? I really want to change that. And if you want to change that and to build something better, to build better relationships – that's going to take active work.

– You mentioned a lack of comprehensive sexual education. But how do you think each of us can bridge the gap in young men’s sexual education?

– Maybe we should be a bit more serious when talking to boys. Maybe we shouldn't make everything a joke or a competition. Maybe it shouldn't be about bragging and looking cool.

I notice that boys want to talk to me because I take them seriously. Even if they start joking when we first talk, and  they're like: “Oh my dick is one meter long, can I have sex?” I'll tell them: “I don't know what kind of sex you want to have, but I don't think that the size of your penis will take away the possibilities for you to have sex.” So even when they start with joking, I just take them seriously. And when they see that they think: “Oh wait, this guy is actually here to have a serious conversation with me, I'm not going to brag about myself. I'm not going to talk about how cool I am or anything. I really want to listen and I really want to have a serious conversation.” That’s refreshing for guys. That’s something they're not used to. So I think everybody can have that approach, the same approach that I have.

– Consent is a key part of your book. How do you approach teaching boys about consent? And why is it essential in the context of sexual relationships?

– Consent is the opposite of violence. Consent is about making sure the people involved in something like sex are both willing to do so, and it's really important. In Sweden we've had the political movement that I’m a part of. It has worked for consent laws. We’ve changed our laws on rape and sexual assault to be based on consent. We got this new law in 2018, and we're really happy to have gotten that. I'm not sure what kinds of laws you have in Ukraine, but in Sweden we have moved away from pretty nasty laws and views on sexual assault in the legal system.

You asked about teaching. When I teach this stuff, I want to do two things. I want boys to understand the facts, but I also want boys to experience what I’m teaching them. We probably do some kind of exercise just to see what it feels like to be listening to someone, or what it feels like to accept the physical distance someone might want to have. We do something like that so that they both get to intellectually understand the topic and also experience it, just because I want their learning to reach deeper.

 

Addressing toxic masculinity

– Toxic masculinity can be a barrier to healthy relationships and respectful behavior. How do you address this issue from your experience as a sex educator, and what are some of the strategies for challenging toxic masculinity?

– I really think this is an important topic. When we look at boys who resort to violence, we can see that they adhere to stereotypical toxic ideas about masculinity more often than other boys. The ideas that we have about ourselves as boys and men actually shape our behavior in various ways. That's why we have to talk about masculinity, and I think that something that makes it hard to talk about masculinity is that it's always changing. 

The things I grew up with are not valid anymore. And the things that are valid now might not be valid in two years – especially among children and teenagers. Things change so fast. I don't want to be the only one who talks about masculinity. I want students to reflect about their own experiences and then I give them instructions. For example, I ask them to look at some dolls and some children. What is the gender of the children? What is the gender of the dolls? What do they look like? What materials are they made of? And so the kids themselves are the ones who get to inspect the gender norms. It's not me as an adult. They do it. I think that works better.

And the last thing I want to say is that as an adult, you are always a role model, and that means you have to think what would make you yourself insecure, and why somebody might say or do something to you that would make you feel insecure as a man. What could you do? One thing that happens to me a lot is that because I'm not white and I live in a white society, people find my name kind of strange. People want to pin me down. They say: “Oh Inti, is that a girl's name?” And I've made it a habit to say: “Well, you know, I think that you're trying to mock me in that way, but I have a sister, I have a mother, I don't think it's bad to be a girl or a woman.” So if you want to mock me, it’s not working. So whatever that could be – I don't know what it could be for you, what it could be for the readers, but think about those things that could make you insecure. What could you do to be less insecure?

– Here in Ukraine we now live amid a full-scale war. Do you think historically toxic masculinity in adults is the reason for wars around the world?

– It's part of the problem. If we look at crazy dictators around the world, the majority of them are men. If we look at people that stir up wars, and especially if we're talking about illegal wars, the majority of them would be men. And when we look at the ones who get to do the killing – and it's a horrible job – it's also mostly men. And I think it's horrible to see how these countries treat the lives of their young men as expendable. Especially these kinds of authoritarian countries, like Russia, specifically target young men who are in bad situations. They may be boys. They may be poor. They may be ethnic minorities, and their lives are not seen as valuable. They are not really seen as human. They’re seen as war meat. And I think that's horrible. 

Patriarchy has two sides. It's like a coin – one side is glorifying men and giving men special rights and special treatment, but flip the coin and men are expendable. And you can send tens of thousands of boys to war without training just because they’re poor. Just because they’re from a rural area. Ship them to another country and let them die there. It's really horrible. I think, as a man, it's important to see the double-faced nature of patriarchy.

– My next question is about adolescence, because it's a crucial time for sexual education. What are some common misconceptions or myths about sex and relationships that you aim to dispel?

– When I speak with teenage boys, they almost seem to look at sex as some kind of competition. It's a competition between friends about who does it first. Or who has done the most things. Or what size their dick is. Or who has grown the most hair. They treat it as a competition, and I think that's so sad. Sexuality could be such a fantastic part of your life, but what you’re looking for in sexuality is unique to you. It's not the same as what your friends are looking for. And there's also the matter of personal sexual development, and where you are in that development is also individual, and your friends are probably living through something else right now.

I see young guys thinking that it's better to have done all kinds of things. And I'm trying to tell them, maybe you don't like all those things. Maybe it would be better to take it calmly and do the things that the person you are with wants to do with you. The things that you two really want and like. And maybe not the things that you read about in a magazine or that your friends told you about. Because then you're not in contact with yourselves or with each other. You're just in contact with this mental notion about what you're supposed to be doing. So you're missing out on the great stuff.

 

– The next question is going to be kind of hard. There's a problem in Ukraine and all around the world with young girls being raped during drunken teenage parties. What could be done about it? Is it the problem of these boys’ parents or the society’s problem? 

– What alcohol does is it takes away inhibition. It takes away the breaks that you have in your brain. The things that you perform in the presence of alcohol are things that have already been present in your thoughts. Alcohol doesn’t give you new attitudes or new ideas. It just takes away the barriers. 

So what happens when a boy rapes a girl under the influence of alcohol is the result of a long, probably many years long, walk towards that situation, where negative attitudes about girls and destructive attitudes about boys have probably been voiced along the way, and negative destructive behaviors have probably also been present and haven’t been stopped or haven’t been talked about as a serious thing. And probably the boy’s friends laughed and just went along with this behavior instead of saying that it's bad. So  the time for us, the adult world, to do something is much much earlier, much before this situation actually occurs. I train school staff on this issue because the most common place for teenagers to be sexually harassed is actually in schools. Most often it's another teenager, another young person who does it.

The places where lots of young people meet are the places where the most of sexual harassment and sexual violence occurs, and those are the places where the work has to start. It's schools. It could also be sports clubs for example. I teach teachers and school staff to see that this is a journey. Sexual harassment is a journey, and it only gets worse if it's allowed to continue. It's really easy to start to intervene early, because early on these kinds of behaviors are very public. Boys perform those bad behaviors in groups. They do it when everybody sees it. They say stuff in public.  You can start doing the work with really young kids, before there's a filter, so that when it comes to a one-on-one situation, when one of them is 18 years old, you’ve already laid the foundation for good attitudes and good behavior. And I don't want to think this is a matter for society. This is something that staff can be trained to do properly. 

Of course parents can also do stuff. First of all, you can voice that you want the school to have sex education. That you want the school to work on gender equality and sexual equality. That’s something you can do. Another thing you can do is that you can speak with your children about sexuality and consent and just give them a sense of responsibility. Explain that their actions matter and they can't go around hurting other people. 

– Young people may feel overwhelmed by the pressure of fitting in and confronting societal expectations. How can we inform boys about making the right decision even when it's not the popular one?

– In “Respect”, I write that respect is not only respect for others, it's also respect for yourself, and you have to build it inside yourself. You have to build the capacity to give yourself a pat on the shoulder, to be the one that says: “Yeah, you did great.” And maybe others made fun of you, or maybe you missed out on something. 

One thing I experienced when I was a child is that when in school we did painting or other activities that needed a lot of materials,  and when we were done everybody had to take away the materials and tidy up the room – what often happened was that the majority of the boys just ran off and wanted to leave the girls to do the work. And I can't understand why the teachers allowed this, but they allowed this. The boys just opened the door and ran out and all this work that had to be done was left for the girls. And some boys stayed, and I was one of the boys who stayed. And in doing that I missed out on going out into the sun and playing because there was cleaning that had to be done. So in a sense you could say that I was a loser, I lost out on something. But you have to be able to be the one that tells yourself that what you've done is actually the right thing. And whatever material or social loss you suffered was worth it because you were true to your own values.

 

 

– If, according to your book, the key word in sex education for boys is “respect", what is the key word for girls?

– That's a good question. I mean, it could be “respect” too, right? Respect is such a good thing, such a good word. People really have to learn to treat each other with more respect, and also treat themselves with more respect. So maybe it’s the same word.

I had this really interesting experience when I released this book in Sweden. The first time it was released I thought that only boys and men would read it. But then I've been contacted by lots of girls and women who said that it was the best book about sex they've ever read. I didn't write it for women or girls. I didn't think any girl would open it. So that shows that maybe it's not so different.